About "Kali"
Hey all: found this in a forum, thought you'd like reading it. cheers!
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"First of all have you been to Panay or Negros? there is no point discussing things with you since you haven't been here, if you just base your facts with the university facts then you are limiting yourself."
I have visited Dumaguete and I have visited Sagay for an Anthropology symposium there, although this was 5 yrs ago.
"How many species of animals do you think are out there that science have not discovered but are living there lives for thousands of years, we don;t know maybe there are still tribes that are living somewhere that we don't know of."
Actually, all tribes around the world have been mapped out. Specific research about clans are now underway. In geography, the oceans and the lands have been mapped out. Of course, all mammals have been discovered. But, you are right about the smaller species.
"The point is you don't base your facts from other peoples research, as I have pointed out so many times our history have been twisted by the spaniards, like the bible, do you think that bible of ours now is the exact replica of the original one? is it not that constantine the great did a lot of disecting and twisting of it to suit his political ambitions....? "
I'm basing my facts on liguistics, which if you follow in Philippine academics is revamping new ideas and improving older theories. The languages in the Philippines is still quite alive. Some areas might lose certain words, but these words are found in other areas. The anthropology and history dept in UP (the harvard of your country no less) are making new strides in linguistics. If you claim that your grandfather used the word KALI to mean the original art of the Philippines, then why doesn't this word show up in other ethno-linguistic groups in your country?
"My grandfather is no longer around to tell you face to face about kali, if you don't believe it's up to you, you said that kali came to america because of villaabril and Inosanto then that is one proof that it exists, there are things that are lost in written form but are alive in our culture and are told only by word of mouth, now if you are really looking for a rosetta stone that could verify your theory then dig for it as long as you live! "
Inosanto says he just mixed up KAmut and LIhok (words in Bisaya) to get Kali. Much like his MAPHILINDO. if Kali is a cultural phenomena, then why can't your own filipino anthropologists and linguists locate this word anywhere in the Philippines?
"but to say that it does not exist is a big mistake, don't genralize things before you have not exhausted all the angles of posibilities, like the t rex dinosaur is it not that a century ago scientist made general statements of this and that, and a century later de ja vu they found one set of new t rex bones somewhere in africa and changed the whole scientific theory! so better be careful of your theories especially if you are trying to make statements against family things, just as what you said that my grandfather just made up the kali word is a personal insult on my part..."
It wasn't insult, I was just simply using logic. If your grandfather did use the word Kali for your art, then you should've used this word from the very beginning, prior to NARAPHIL. Why the switch, when you came to america, then the re-switching afterwards? And how do you explain all the Spanish words present in your system?
"About the kali kalihan festival in salvador Benedicto you said that they just made it up when they read Inosanto's book, my god where in the hell did you get that?"
Maybe, my source was ill informed. Forgive me for writing that, but the fact that this word still originated in the US still holds true.
"did you know that the town of Salvador Benedicto was still un accessible in the 1970's? and the people who live there are called the pulahan tribes did you know that? bet you did not now you know better put that in your research notebook..."
the Pulahanes are not tribes in the Philippines Mr. Gaje. this is an Anthropologic fact. The history of the Pulahanes are found in Mr. Ileto's "Pasyon" and Mr. Mojares' "War Against the Americans", to name a few books. They were first documented in Southern Luzon, then in Samar, Leyte, Bohol, Negros, and Cebu in the 1900s and sometime prior. they were so named for the red they wore. They were a millenarian religious group which spread during the first years of the American occupation.
"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat,"
There is the connection I was looking for!!! So, basically it has you after having lived in America, having political connections, knowing your people will receive any American information rather easily, since colonial mentality (as Mr. Constantino has eloquently written about) is very rampant among Filipinos. Of course, when you offered the word Kali they accepted.
"so where in the hell can these people read about inosantos book these people don't even know any dan inosanto! they live way up in the mountain, I'm just wondering who is that stupid @#%$ researcher who told you that, you better check on your facts before believing it.if you want to find kali customs and traditions then tell me I would be happy to accompany you there to see for your self, than sit in your computer and insult other people."
There is no need to re-check the Inosanto connection since we already know it was in fact you, having political connections in that municipality, who named it kalikalihan.
"About that arnis and escrima in new york I was appointed by General Fabian Ver to be the head of the Naraphil, and arnis was the one that General ver adopted, in support for that I was obliged to name my organization arnis escrima, but after the disentigration of Naraphil I had my kali since that was what my grandfather taught me to."
So, to recap.. You are saying that your grandfather did call his art Kali? and this is what he has called it since his grandfather's time and so on?
"have you noticed those so called grandmasters who adulterated the Filipino martial art? you see we still believe that our great forefathers are still guarding this ancient art and had made it sacred, maybe they are in spirit now but we still believe that they are the guardians of this art of kali."
I've also done research in Mindanao. and you are right, the blade is still very much a part of their culture there. This is also true for some tribes in Nothern Luzon. the fact that the Philippines has a pretty sophisticated fighting arts isn't my contention here. it is the title Kali and its origin. For the sake of research, I want to write a complete rendering of your people's arts (this has been done for Japanese martial arts, Indonesian, and I know fellow doing research about India's fighting arts). So far all reference to this word KALI has taken me back to the US. I have yet to find Kali in any of your nation's ethno-linguistic groups. but, I do have alot of conjectures that relate to the origin of this word (i.e. Kali is a Hindu Goddess, which is silly because the Philippines was never hindu. Kali is found in many words like Kalinog, Kalipay, when in fact KA is just the prefix and linog and lipay are the actual roots, etc etc). so far, only American Filipinos or Filipinos who have visited the US use the title Kali. They do not use it in Mindanao, or Luzon, and I'm pretty sure they do not use it in the Bisayas. I have already offered you the updated studies of the "bothoan schools" or the code of Kalintaw. You can check this at UP Diliman.
I cannot write a book and say, Mr. Gaje, Mr. Inosanto (who has never visited the Philippines) and Mr. Largusa (himself a Filipino-American), say that Kali is the ancient mother art of the Philippines--It must be so. This would greatly affect my status as a researcher. I am not like other researchers who have come before, regurgitating information word for word from those who he has interviewed. I actually have an academic background from your country, and I have many friends there that I love. I love your nation, and this is why I am badgering you for the truth. If you feel offended, this is natural because I'm taking all that you've held true and subjecting them to questions you've never asked yourself. But, the final outcome of this research will speak fairly of the Filipino Warrior Arts for the generation of filipinos to come. Which is why i'm doing this.
After we've subjected this word Kali and bombarded it with all possible attacks, if this title is legitimate then it will stand by itself. We wouldn't have to rely on "my grandfather used it, trust me, this is why it's true" evidence. Because i'm sure you already know, this is not academic.
Again, I look forward to meeting you sir, to hash out further the origins of the Filipino martial arts and its history.
visited the new gaje site yet..
wow they really are a professional very very Commercial school. its a come on sucker deal with them. of course their art is very refined and scientific, metaphysic bladecraft from negros,!!!
with all due respect this type of crap is slowly killing authentic FMA its going to be a lot harder in 10years time to go back home and find true authentic masters to train with one on one, this crap, and other systems want a monopoly on FMA which is alot sadder than them using an Indian term to propogate their art!
peace
terry
tasloco Registered User
Posts: 42
(2/22/04 9:43 pm) Reply
kali
this researcher will have a lot of work and hassles to go through in the FMA. It's so widely used and propagated but as a researcher, i can respect his integrity to obtain and disseminate the hard facts. I mean wouldn't it be sad that what the old masters (villabrille, inosanto, etc.) said about kali being the mother art was false - based on hard facts? It wouldn't look good on FMA on a whole, and GM Leo Gaje's organization, or anyone's school using "kali" in their name would lose face. But then again, it's just a name/term right?
I agree that Gaje's org. is very commercial. But in his defense i think he has to go that route for quality control as his org. is very big and it's easy to lose track and control. He's a great teacher, a little eccentric, but i don't think that what he writes can be taken too seriously, his system being the ultimate FMA, come on man! It's the man using the art not the art.
Re: kali
I mean wouldn't it be sad that what the old masters (villabrille, inosanto, etc.) said about kali being the mother art was false - based on hard facts? It wouldn't look good on FMA on a whole
hahahah And the blind moro princess that largusa still has up on his website isnt false!!!!!!
hahahhahahahaha
now thats sad.....
tasloco Registered User
Posts: 44
(2/23/04 5:16 am) Reply
on kali
"It wasn't insult, I was just simply using logic. If your grandfather did use the word Kali for your art, then you should've used this word from the very beginning, prior to NARAPHIL. Why the switch, when you came to america, then the re-switching afterwards? And how do you explain all the Spanish words present in your system?"
this statement is a big bite in the @#%$ man. If you hold true to your original art and having respect for those who have died using this said art, why in the world would you change the name for anything in the world....except of course, for money? I read from another FMA practitioner that all the Spanish terms in FMA are not just unique to FMAs but in general, the Spaniards didn't want the "indos" learning their language - it was divide and conquer and their sense of colonial superiority which made most "indos" want to learn Spanish in order to become equal. Sounds like an interesting point, but he didn't name a source so don't take it as written in stone.
more...
here's more of the discussion (argument?)...
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"so there you are, is it not remote to think that some families or a group of people have preserved their own knowledge and customs and traditions?"
You are correct on this, sir. But, you’ve claimed that "Kali" is the name of the "ancient art of the Philippines". So, this is not a "family" or "group" martial art anymore. If Kali is indeed the "mother art of the Philippines", then we should also be able to come across this title in other regions and among other ethnic groups. Thus far only a very few people in the Philippines refer to their arts as Kali. Of course, the bigger FMA franchises have adopted this term (although they cannot explain its origin). Why, for example, is Kali not found in Mindanao and Luzon? (although there is Kalirongan, but as I’ve explained before KA (is the prefix) lirong (is the root word) and –AN (is the suffix)
"you said that villabrile mentioned kali in his art, they were the first migrants of filipino workers in Hawaii, now you claim that this people in the 1920's made up kali? "
Yes, the villabrille-largusa school uses KALI. I’m in contact with this group. So far, their instructors in California have not really explained Kali as well. Villabrille himself used ‘eskrima’ and ‘arnis’. Yet, it was Largusa who popularized the term Kali. Villabrille, a relative of the Illustrisimos of Bantayan Island, Cebu, switched from using ‘eskrima’ to Kali only in the 50s, which connects to Mr. Yambao’s book published in the 1950s in which he mentions the word "kali". Since Mr. Yambao was from a region in the Philippines which used "Kalirongan", there is a big chance that Kali is just a truncated version of this word. the Villabrille school have been kind enough to refer me to the island of Kaui to seek more information about the Kali connection with their school.
"if this person mentioned it in the 1920's then there is something or a grain of truth about it, remember there was no other fma in america that would create the so called politics, those migrant workers went to hawaii to work in the pineapple plantations and not to earn money in teaching fma, they had brought with them their knowledge and customs and traditions, just as your multi racial immigrants brought theres to america. "
The documented use of the word Kali with this group dates to the 50s only. I’m still trying to research, whether in the 1920s and 30s the word Kali was used in Hawaii by Villarbrille. In contrast, I have interviewed several Filipino-American soldiers in California and Washington, who have fought with the 1st and 2nd Filipino Regiments in WWII. I’ve also interviewed some who were from the bolo/guerilla battalions in the Philippines. None have heard of Kali, although they are familiar with eskrima, arnis, pangamut, panantukan, etc. etc.
"there is no basis that this people would make up stories because they want to make a financial empire out of fma, just as some so called grandmasters are doing now, making up things claim as their own and make money out of it."
But you are one of these "grandmasters making a financial empire out of FMA", are you not? The biggest Filipino schools are Presas’ Modern Arnis, Canete’s Doce Pares, and your Pekiti Tersia (actually you are the biggest among these three since you are directly connected to the Philippine Gov’t). And then there are the American based schools, like Sayoc, Villabrille-Largusa, Inosanto-Lacoste blend, etc etc… How are you different from these "financial empires"?
"Now there are things that are kept within the family, just as fma techniques and styles are closely guarded secrets, my late uncle Teodorico Tortal did not talk to me for 2 years because I started teaching the family art. Now if you are looking for these things in books and from our heroes, is it not that these people were our model of principles? for sure if they had one in the family, they would not talk about since they are bound with an oath."
Yes, I am familiar with family arts, handed down thru generations. But, your art is the "Ancient Mother Art of the Philippines". So, this means we should be able to see it in other groups and regions in the Philippines.
"Just like the voodoo and spell that we have in the Philippines, yes documentaries have been done films have been shown about it, but have you found a "published book " that was printed showing and teaching all the encantations of the black magic world, of course not! unless you become a disciple and be a member of the inner core of practitioners then you can get hold of one.
I saw one documentary in National geographic, a search for solomons mines, they tried to extract information from priests, sects leaders and had maps and physical evidence as well as historical records as basis for tracing the where abouts of it even the trade routes they try and analyzed it, but at the end what they got was a hypothesis that, that place could be"not confirmed" place of solomons mines! know why? because those who had proofs hesitate or WOULD NOT TALK so what can you get? how can you prove it?"
Yes, I understand that there are secrets that cannot be known by outsiders. But, the fact that people have read about and known about "solomon’s mines" is the basis of my argument. If something is big, people will know. The details might not be available, but the general nature of the claim will be known. For example, Kali is the ancient mother art. This is your claim. Because it is ancient and people have handed it down for generations, then we should expect some people to atleast be familiar with this title. I would understand that the specifics would be hidden. But, the opposite instead is true with Kali. People have never heard of it (in the Philippines), yet if you tell them about your techniques and weapons, people will be familiar. When you say baston, daga, punyo, florete, etc. people are familiar, but when you say Kali, people become less familiar. So, your analogy with voodoo or magic isn’t really similar with the whole Kali phenomena, because this phenomena is the exact opposite.
"So if we put it in the the position of kali, first of all I claim that kali is a philosophy as well a martial art. did you know how many historical artifacts and books that we lost during the Spanish era? have you realized that?"
Yes, I realize that much information have been lost, but not all. If you say, the title Kali has been passed down in your familiy through generations, then why can’t you offer a tighter explanation? Every martial art term, in any art, has an origin. When you say punyo, we can say it’s spanish for the butt of the sword. When you say wing chun, tae kwon do, karate, krav maga, judo, eskrima, arnis, pangamut, etc etc… we can all trace these terms to a meaning and where that meaning came from. This isn’t true for Kali. Kali by itself doesn’t mean anything in any Filipino dialects. This is the reason you fall on conjectures, when you try to explain its origin. This is why you say it’s from the Goddess Kali (is this what your grandfather said?), or the word is found in the word Kalinaw, Kalipay, Kalibanga', or that people in the NPA call each other Ka’ (this stands for kasama by the way, which is comrade). These are all conjectural tangents. also, I have spoken to a relative of yours who carry the name Dekiti-Tersia. Both of you hail from the same family style, yet both have two completely different versions of your art’s title. Because according to him, the Tortals have alsways used eskrima or arnis, Kali is something new introduced by you. I understand that he or you could be wrong, but the fact that there is this big difference in title, sparks one’s curiousity.
"one of those could be a book about kali, just as in our history books tells of the barangay form of government which came from the word balangay which discribes a big boat or raft that was used by early malay migrants in migrating to our islands, these was confirmed and authenticated when in the 1980's a raft was discovered was dug in mindanao."
If this word Kali has been lost then how did you or your family come to use it? If your answer is that it’s been passed down through the generations, then why can’t you provide its etymology and it’s meaning. When I say meaning, I do not mean merely saying, "Kali is a philosophy of the ancient Filipino warriors". When I say meaning and origin, I mean for example: wing chun came from the name of it’s originator, or eskrima is the filipinized spanish word to mean fencing, pangamut comes from kamut or hand in Bisaya, and they mean this... etc.
"Is it not that some of our cultures are left by the word of mouth? the martial arts in ancient time was not a political or a commercial trade, it was only practiced by a few and only handed down with in the family, it will take you strength and courage and persiverance to be adopted within ones family and be taught the art if you are an outsider, so rules are strict and codes of conduct are preserved, honor was the conduct of the day. ATMOST SECRECY IS THE RULE!"
Yes, by word of mouth. Information is transferred by word of mouth or in writing. If you claim that Kali is transferred thru word of mouth, then why can’t you explain its origin and meaning? The word kali is not a secret anymore, yet you still cannot offer a sufficient answer about its origin and meaning.
"That is why I said that there are things that you cannot find in books, or just in everday life, go to Siquijor, the island known as the black magik capital of the philippines and talk about hiring somebody to do a black magik or voodoo demonstration for you see if somebody will do it, they will just laugh at you, yeah maybe one will say ok I will do it for a fee, but do you think you will get the original? I don't think so these things are best kept secret not advertised in the yellow pages, unless you have an intermediary who is really a reliable one then you can get to the heart of it, so if you are just like those backpacking white guys that goes around interviewing people with a camera and pencil and paper and digging past research in libraries then forget it. if that was what you did then you were all the while barking on the wrong trees for so long!"
This is true. But you will pick up words like Hilot, Barang, Mananambal, Arbolario, Lanag, Orasyones, and Antin-anting. I learn of all these in Siquijor Island. Granted I wasn’t able to find out the specific details of these occult arts but the overall concept and meaning are available, although the secret details aren’t. But the opposite is true for Kali. We can’t figure out the meaning of this word, the general concept/title, but once you go inside your art words like espada, daga, fondo, abecedaria, florete, etc are very familiar since they are the same words used in eskrima and arnis.
"practicioners of the real art are not after being concernerned of coming out on films and tv's they die with their techniques and honor!"
But, you are on film, the internet, tv, newspaper, magazine, and radio. And you have taught your techniques to europeans, asians, and americans.
"if you are looking for that ethno linguistic connection then what are we? are we not ilonggos an ethnic group? "
Yes, but why aren't other Ilongos, at the very least, familiar with this term?
"villabrile where did he came from? is he not a member of an ethnic group too? "
Yes, he is cebuano. But no other cebuanos use this term. Although his cousin Illustrisimo, uses the word Kalis for his art. But, he doesn’t say it’s the "Ancient Mother Art of the Philippines". His Kalis is related to Keris the sword in Mindanao, since he learned most of his art in Zamboanga.
"as I have said fma a long time ago was not for everyone it was a close knit group of people so you cannot just find it anywhere, just like you go to a supermarket and dept store and get everthing, or just talking to common people and find everthing, and to do statistics what do you think would be the percentage of people doing fma before compared to the population itself, coming in to terms the rigidity of the training and the strictness of discipline? so it is not remote that these things become extinct as the time passes and only a few survived the onslaught of time, if insects become extinct when there are millions of them you think it is remote that the Philosophy of kali had the same fate too?"
If the "philosophy of Kali" was extinct, how did you or your family come to rediscover it. And why can’t you explain the meaning of Kali and its origin?
"So what's the big deal? does that make kali any different? you are just trying to be political, in the first place kali pertains to a philosophy and martial art while arnis and escrima is only a name of an fma martial art. when I wanted to invoke the philosphical part of the art, I cannot say escrima and arnis have philosophies since they are just merely names of fma given by the spaniards. so I have to go back to the original roots which I owe my grandfather everything I know and the philosophy he had implanted on me."
You can’t really say that your cliche expression "we choose life not death" is a philosophy. This is common sense, anybody would choose life over death. It is basic human survival instinct. And you can’t really say eskrima and arnis are without philosophy. When you say this, you’re saying that the WWII veterans I have spoken to, who have wielded their bolos and swords in actual combat in the Philippines, have no philosophy because they were not familiar with the title "Kali".
"As I have said, we were under the spanish rule for 333 years to be exact try and count how many generations could fit in that number?, is it not remote that the spanish words had it's influence on the terminologies? as you said language is evolving, so is it not possible that through time terms had evolved and all that was left was the original philosophy and the techniques."
Again, why can’t you provide a better explanation of this title? If you say that this word has evolved since, then we should still be able to figure out its meaning, like the words Hilot, Barang, Lanag, Anito. These are all pre-spanish words by the way, yet many filipinos are familiar with these terms, although not its details.
"Now that is the problem you base your facts from other peoples research, I think you misunderstood what I mean the pulahan tribe that I was talking about was the pulahan that PAPA ISIO headed in the town of Isio south of negros island. they were originaly called karul-an they were separated from the lowlanders, they had their own form of government and set of beliefs and customs and traditions, when the spanish came and tried to envade them they declared themselves independent so the the spanish regime masaccred the tribe but few survived and migrated to other places , but brought with them their own set of beleifs and customs and traditions later on as time passed by, they integrated with the pulahan that you are talking about and so they were known in time as the pulahan. And the remnants of these are still in Salvador Benedicto.The old name of Salvador Benedicto is Igmayaan."
Basing your initial research on other people’s research is what you’re suppose to do. This is the academic process. Now you are saying it’s not the pulahan (first, you said "it was the pulahan tribe), it was actually the karul-an tribe who were accepted among the pulahanes. The pulahan as you’ve explained used the word Halad, before you changed it yourself. Halad means offering in Bisaya. Records indicate that the municipality of Salvador Benedicto is composed of about 60% Bisaya (cebuano) and about 40% Ilongos (hiligaynon). This is from the census. My question now is, did the populace of Benedicto use the title Kali, or did they know about it, before you introduced it? Were they even remotely familiar with this term and its meaning?
"When my second cousin became the first Mayor of Salvador Benedicto in the early eighties after leaving the rebel group the new peoples army Salvador benidicto had already it's festival named halad by the pulahan tribes, it was my idea to rename it kalikalihan festival in honor of the metaphysical and the kali gathering done by these people, the pulahan tribes are warrior like people that practice metaphysical things in their fight, in fact a few weeks before they celebrated this festival early february, they still practice full contact stickfighting no pads and headgears, infact a few years ago, one died because he was hit by a punyo on the throat"
"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? "
Yes it is political, if the populace didn’t use this title to begin with. This is what you call an Introduced Cultural concept. Very much the same with what christian missionaries do when they visit non-christian tribes and introduce foreign concepts, thus yanking them out of their already established cultural traditions. Also Kali is not a custom or a set of beliefs, unless you can explain how it is a custom or set of beliefs, besides just saying that "in Kali, we choose life not death, and health over sickness, etc etc.". This is not philosophy, this is just a collection of cliches. You will find the same "sayings" in Tai Chi, Chi Gong, or Karate. What you did was merely introduced the "kali is the ancient martial arts of the Philippines" concept, which was your own. They were not using Kali prior to you.
"So now is that political to revive an old custom or set of beliefs? To honor ones past glorious days? no amount of money could compensate for ones beliefs and principles, That is why Japan is lucky in terms of their cultural heritage, for they have preserved the Samurai and the bushido even though maybe just maybe none is left of this so called samurai warriors, or maybe because no Spaniard colonizer have set foot on their islands! to adulterate everything!"
But, making up a word "to honor ones past glorious days" is suspect since the rest of your art’s terminology is still very much related to other arts that use the title eskrima and arnis (like seguidas, florete, abecedario, baston, orasan, etc.)
"you say Phil. was never hindu now do you also mean that Phil. had never had any trading relations with India? How come we still call our teacher in tagalog Guro?"
I’m not saying there’s no Indian influence. We all know of the Vishayan empire. But, to make an assumption that Kali refers to the hindu goddess is somewhat of a stretch, because Hindu as a religion never really established itself in the Philippines. If it did then we should also see the Gods, Shiva, Ganesh, etc etc of Hindu represented. It is fairly common for cultures to borrow words from others, but it is unheard of for names of Gods to be borrowed without actual religious conquers. Examples of religious conquerings are the Moros of Mindanao, there is plenty of Arabic liturgical terms present because there was an actual Islamic foothold in this region, this was never true for Hindu. another would be the Spanish catholicization. Further, saying Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish in origin, and that this is the reason Kali is used, because it is Indian, is not logical. Because Kali would still be just another conqueror’s term, much like the Spanish eskrima and arnis.
"and we have documented writings which originated from the sanskrit?we did not read that in inosantos book! and don't you know that most some of the voodoo spells have indian words on them? so where did we get that maybe you can tell me or explain that to me. Look for the katipunan flag what is that letter in the middle? it's sanskrit in origin that is the letter K."
I have yet to have read this about actual sanskrit writings in the Philippines. When you say actual sanskrit, you are referring to the writing system in India. Many scholars have compared the Baybayin alphabets to actual sanskrit Alphabets, and although there are stylistic similarities, they are totally different. The K in sanskrit does not look anything like the K in Baybayin, the filipino alphabet on the Katipunan flag.
Kali is found in many words like Kalinog, Kalipay, when in fact KA is just the prefix and linog and lipay are the actual roots, etc etc). so far, only American Filipinos or Filipinos who have visited the US use the title Kali. They do not use it in offered you the updated studies of the "bothoan schools" or the code of Kalintaw. You can check this at UP Diliman.
"So is it not queer? that most of these words have kali as a root word?"
As I’ve explained, "Kali" is not the root of these words you keep bringing up. Linog, linaw and lipay are the roots, earthquake, calm and happy. When you add the prefix KA, it becomes an abstract concept. This is basic filipino grammar. Kalibang means diarhea in bisaya. Libang is the act of taking a crap. So, "kali" is not the root. To make connections into these syllables would also be to say that California and Calistenics and the town Calisco in Mexico are related to the "ancient Philippine martial arts".
"so that tells you something do more research and more diggings one day you might stumble on a rosetta stone and find something, the fact that these words have kali as the root word…"
Kali as I have explained is not the root. Ka is merely a prefix in the words you’ve mentioned.
"I suggest you learn their dialect and maybe you could find one, since I think the one that you talked to are all professors and academic people, why not learn the dialect itself of ethnic tagbanuas, tibolis, bilaans,etc. and live with them for years it could open windows of oppurtunity to you then you might find what you are looking for."
And this is what I, along with other researchers, are doing. Instead of relying on conjectures and empty rhetoric, and collections of cliches, we are trying to figure out the origins of these cultural phenomenons in the Philippines. On a side note, one of the anthropology Phd candidates in UP that I contact regularly in matters of terminology is himself T’boli from Mindanao. And I have asked him about Kali in his culture, and he informed me that this word is just not found among his people. Hopefully, I can do more research. But, there is still so much to learn about your nation.
"Anyway the research profession is a big, those that you refered to are just human beings that are fallable, they could commit errors why not do it yourself and do what they have done, maybe you could find something that they had missed out who knows right?"
Well this is what I’m doing, sir. I’m using the information already gained by others, and from them I am making my own discoveries and conclusions into the origins of Filipino martial arts and other cultural realities. the is the academic process. exactly, because people are "fallable", this is the reason we have to keep on comparing facts and theories and providing evidence for everything we claim. With your help and others, I will be able to write a complete account. I don’t want to follow what other researchers of Filipino martial arts have done, we both know that the written works thus far are great examples of mediocre research. So, please bare with me and we will get to the bottom of this. Thank you once again.
tasloco Registered User
Posts: 45
(2/23/04 9:58 am) Reply
on kali
wow, this is getting interesting....what forum is this from? or are these email "transactions?"
Re: About "Kali"
about kali and its supposed FMA origins.. this is about as realistic as an non filipino Arnis GRANDMASTER..
and thats for real
peace
terry
tasloco Registered User
Posts: 46
(3/1/04 6:51 am) Reply
non-filipino grandmaster
well, arnis philippines will be granting Datu Kelly Worden the title of Grandmaster of his Natural Fighting Spirit art. What you have to say about that?
Re: About "Kali"
i dont have a problem with anyone using the term of master (in theory this is really the highest level) and at this level you should be ready to back it up against the best of the best in your form!
however the term "GRANDMASTER" has been abused.
especially by people in the FMA..not just non-filipinos infact they know no better than following their teachers who have been the ones to have abused the term. Another style who have used it is the kenpo karate after ed parker.
You dont see the term
grandmaster overly given or used in the japanese MA or the Chinese martia arts, in the indian Ma this term is not really used.
with worden fair enough it is his OWN System HE Is the arts GM. Hopefully he will drop that disrecpectfull DATU title.. what is he datu of? worden village??
peace
terry
P.S
doesnt wordens system contain indonesian silat? if so why dont an organisation in indonesia give him the title og GM...??
also as pinoys we should know anything can be bought back home, degrees, licenses
even cebuano player has stated that a european has basically bought a grandmastership in balintawak and there is sufficient evidence to back this up. So with enough money (donations a grandmastership can be bought)
i wonder what arnis philippines are getting out of this?
or are they just doing it out of the goodness of thier hearts..
About "Kali"
yes, i agree with deadlybalintawak, regarding master vs. grandmaster titles. come to think of it, i've heard of master painters, master artists, master electricians, etc., but never grandmaster as their highest. the title master should be the highest. it's only in the martial arts that you see grandmaster (hell, even supreme grandmaster).
and yes, he is also right that filipinos are the ones more apt in abusing this term. you can blame this to our culture-- everyone wants to be chief, no one wants to be an indian. hence too many chiefs and not enough indians. which also rings true in the corporate, academic, and political landscape in the Philippines.
they should have one bahad, all out, anything goes tournaments every 10 years, in which all those who claim master and grandmaster titles are invited and challenge each other until there are only ten (so, there's no monopoly). these 10 are recognized and allowed to propagate their art, until the next 10 year mark for another bahad. the ones who are defeated are advertised, so people know they @#%$.
just my two cents...
LabanB Registered User
Posts: 1
(3/2/04 6:25 pm) Reply
Re: About "Kali"
Hi CP,
How many of the "high" profile systems about in the PI do you think would turn out for such a tournament?
I think, given the money involved (i.e. the potential loss), means that very few would risk it. I agree, a good method, but as we've seen with the PTK tournaments, very few of the GMs turned up. Granted the PTK tournaments were angled in their favour, but that could be altered by having an independent body make the rules.
Re: About "Kali"
"""they should have one bahad, all out, anything goes tournaments every 10 years, in which all those who claim master and grandmaster titles are invited and challenge each other until there are only ten (so, there's no monopoly). these 10 are recognized and allowed to propagate their art, until the next 10 year mark for another bahad. the ones who are defeated are advertised, so people know they @#%$."""
poetry in motion man..
actually i know that Epping Attilo and Tatay Carlos Navarro wanted to host a tournament like this in cebu, last year or this year, for those so called GM.. and masters. for that very reason. However the cost involve is too great, ant the implications are great.
Also it is not right/fair for one school to host something like this it should be an agreement of the schools..
what cracks me up is when people say that their art is too deadly for this type of thing...
peace
terry
tasloco Registered User
Posts: 47
(3/3/04 4:47 am) Reply
bahads
Hey cebuanoplayer,
Good idea...if that ever happened, it would make a great reality tv show, hehe! That's advertisement enough i'd say. And if their art is too deadly, use padded sticks but no protection....but with real sticks, that'll keep the players honest for sure.
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